The New Israeli Barrier

Friday, January 09, 2009

Transcript

In what the Foreign Press Association has called an “unprecedented restriction of press freedom,” the Israeli military has barred foreign correspondents from entering the Gaza Strip and thereby covering the war close-up. New York Times Jerusalem bureau chief Ethan Bronner says that in order to understand the current crackdown on media you have to think back to the summer of 2006.

Comments [76]

Bob Frost from Portsmouth NH

You are so funny, anonymous abraham. I'm talking about mass murder both committed and induced by Hamas which bears the moral blame for all the deaths. I don't care what Hamas' political reasons are. They are far and away the most culpable party.

You miscounted the rocket/mortar attack, it was actually a bit higher, 429 where one is too many. That amounts to only five percent of the rocket/mortar attacks 2001-2008.

My prediction is the Palestinian people eventually will turn on Hamas and its criminal partners Al Qaeda, Iran, to mention a couple, long before 2025.

You will get the last word in this thread. It's been just the two of us for a while, so make it a tour de force in personal insults, propaganda, anti-semitic (look it up) propaganda, post, anonymous abraham then give me a call in 2025 if you live that long.

Jan. 15 2009 09:21 PM
abraham

Once again, Bob, you demonstrate an eager desire to FAIL, while at the same time embarassing yourself.

Quit while you're still only embarassingly behind.

Buh-bye.

P.S. Israel gone by 2025.

Jan. 15 2009 05:37 PM
abraham

"I make no pretense of knowing Middle East Politics..."

Oh really? Then whey do you keep posting quotes like you do?

Once again, Bob demonstrates his complete ingorance of Arab politics by quoting the quisling collaborator Mahmood Abbas (also known as Abu Traitor) whose forces were routed in Gaza when they attempted a coup against the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED government of Hamas.

Nice try, Boob. Next you're going to quote perhaps Mubarak, or King Hussein of Jordan, or perhaps even Muhammad Dahlan, the leader of the failed putsch who was armed and trained by Israel and America. I'm sure he has some choice words for Hamas.

Please explain your take on Hamas' "homicidal strategy" of sticking to the cease fire while Israel planned the Gaza operation and then violated it on November 4 with an unprovoked attack on Gaza that killed 6 Hamas men.

"Shortly after the start of the truce, the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center commented that "rogue terrorist organizations" opposed to Hamas continued to carry out attacks. Nevertheless, rocket fire decreased 98% in the four and a half months between 18 June and 4 November in comparison with the four and half months preceding the ceasefire since over 1,894 rockets were fired into Israel from 1 February to 18 June and just 37 were fired between 18 June and the beginning of November."

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/ipc_e007.pdf

Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

Palestinians have truth, justice, AND facts on their side, and Israelis have Bob. How sad.

Jan. 15 2009 05:33 PM
Bob Frost from Portsmouth NH

Al Jazira: "Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, has blamed Hamas for triggering Israel's deadly raids on Gaza, by not extending a six-month truce with the Jewish state."

Who speaks for the Palestinian People, anonymous abraham? You, On the Media? The Angry Arab? The list of 88 "We are all of Jewish origin.." people (even including the duplicate listings of 11 people)?

I make no pretense of knowing Middle East Politics but I do know the homicidal strategy of Hamas against Palestinians and Israelis is beyond politics, it's murder on a large scale. Your rhetoric, name calling, and ranting marginalization of anyone you and other terrorist advocates disagree with isn't going to change that.

Jan. 15 2009 04:33 PM
abraham

"We the undersigned are all of Jewish origin. When we see the dead and bloodied bodies of young children, the cutting off of water, electricity and food, we are reminded of the siege of the Warsaw Ghetto. When Dov Weisglass, an adviser to the Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert, talked of putting Gazans 'on a diet' and the deputy defence minister, Matan Vilnai, talked about the Palestinians experiencing 'a bigger shoah' (holocaust), this reminds us of Governor General Hans Frank in Nazi-occupied Poland, who spoke of 'death by hunger'. The real reason for the attack on Gaza is that Israel is only willing to deal with Palestinian quislings. The main crime of Hamas is not terrorism but its refusal to accept becoming a pawn in the hands of the Israeli occupation regime in Palestine. The decision last month by the EU council to upgrade relations with Israel, without any specific conditions on human rights, has encouraged further Israeli aggression. The time for appeasing Israel is long past. As a first step, Britain must withdraw the British ambassador to Israel and, as with apartheid South Africa, embark on a programme of boycott, divestment and sanctions."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/10/letters-gaza-uk/print

So, Frosty the Blowman, why don't you try to find me a similar statement from Arabs condemning the rocket attacks against Sderot in a similar manner? You won't, because there is no parallel.

You FAIL.

Jan. 15 2009 03:52 PM
abraham

(cont.)

Finally, here is something Ban Ki Moon also said:

"Tel Aviv, Jan 15. – The UN General Secretary Ban Ki-Moon, on a visit to Israel, says he is “outraged” for the attack on the general area of Gaza City where the United Nations agency which deals with Palestinian refugees, the UNRWA, is located, and has asked for explanations from the Jewish state. "'I have expressed my strong protest and my outrage and I have asked for a full explanation from the Foreign Minister and the Minister of Defense”', the head of the UN declared from Tel Aviv. Ban has described the number of dead in the offensive on Gaza to be “unacceptable”."

And that's coming from an American quisling. Just imagine if he were free to say what he really thinks.

Bob, dismissed, again. Didn't you already claim "buh bye"? Apparently I am more than you can handle. Just give it up.

Jan. 15 2009 03:44 PM
abraham

"Bob", unsurprisingly, your knowledge of Arabic politics and propaganda is laughably shallow. Everyone in the Arab world knows that Al Hayat is a tool of pro-Western sell-outs and ideologues while doubling as a mouthpiece for Saudi propaganda, a regime that I would imagine is not one of your favorites (though they now have a working relationship with Israel).

And tell me, who is this Hazem Saghaya? Arab "Uncle Toms" are a dime a dozen these days. They produce them like they do American dollars these days, i.e. in excess, flooding the market in the hopes that it'll prop up a sagging economy, or in this situation a sagging case for Western and Israeli hegemony in the Middle East. People like him are hardly taken seriously in Arab countries because they are seen for what they are: charlatans and harlots of the White Man.

On the other hand, a very well known Arab scholar, who is also normally a critic of Hamas (and Fatah, along with all colaborationist Arab regimes) had this to say about Hamas tactics:

"Of the victims, there are 322 Palestinian children and Palestinian women, according to Palestinian medical sources cited in Al-Jazeera (Arabic). I want to meet a Western liberal who will quibble with whatever methods Palestinians may resort to in the future in fighting Israel. The entire Western world, with its silence or complicity, has lost any right in lecturing or hectoring Palestinians about methods of resistance."

Jan. 15 2009 03:43 PM
Bob Frost from Portsmouth NH

(psssst, abraham, you're still anonymous, still no facts, still fake prophecies.)

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon: "We must insist that Hamas end immediately its rocket attacks, which are so terribly counterproductive, in addition to being completely unacceptable."

Lebanese Journalist, Hazem Saghaya: "Palestinian blood is spilled in Gaza at a cheap price…If we are sorry for the civilian and child sacrifices, we should be even angrier at Hamas for using children… Those who exploit this blood in order to shout 'Where are the Arabs?' are either lying to themselves, or lying to us as a way of promoting the plans of Iran and Damascus, and that is a crime."

(in Al-Hayat, a leading daily pan-Arab newspaper.)

Jan. 15 2009 02:39 PM
abraham

Oh, OK, Bob, who uses a revered dead poet's name to, I suppose, add weight to your non-anonymous drivel?

I do have authority to dismiss, and you've been thoroughly dismissed. You refuse to accept defeat, just like your ideological counterparts in Israel. Remember the year 2025, "Bob".

Thousands of deliberate attacks on a civilian refugee population in Gaza that has killed more people in 2 weeks than all Hamas rockets have in ten years times ten. And you have the gall to keep bleating about Hamas rockets? that merely cause shock? Not surprising though. It's always been a hallmark of zionists to ask for it all and then demand more.

For all the dirty and despicable stereotypes about Jews, zionists merely validate and add weight to them. You do more to harm Jews around the world than any Hamas rocket ever could. You are a terrorist, and Jews are your victim.

The world community is tiring of Israeli transigence. They've already grown tired of the whining. The only support Israel has is from a cabal of so-called Americans who rape and pillage American citizens in order to feed the greed of zionists in Israel. Their time is coming to an end, and it won't be soon enough.

Again, you are dismissed. You are intolerant, bigoted, racist..and irrelevant. Go practice your sick ideology somewhere else, where hyenas and jackals are accepted.

Jan. 15 2009 01:47 PM
Bob Frost from Portsmouth NH

You, American, I appreciate your knowledgeable and matter of fact posts. Thanks.

Jan. 15 2009 01:28 PM
Bob Frost from Portsmouth NH

I don't live in Brooklyn and who are you calling cowards? You make anonymous posts from an anonymous location. Show us how courageous you are abraham

Let's see, one admitted error (by Israelis, immediately) on the UN structure against thousands of deliberate attacks on Israeli civilians by Hamas, not to mention the calculated and forced use of Palestinian civilians to generate collateral damage. I can see why you won't deal in facts and resort to ad hominem distractions.

On The Media has also avoided dealing with pertinent facts presenting instead self-aggrandizing broadcast that insults the intelligence of any listeners who pay attention.

Coming from you, abraham, I consider personal 'insults' compliments. Please, continue avoiding demonstrable facts in your posts, increase the number of links to propagandists supporting your favorite brand of terrorism. You keep illustrating my points. I love it.

p.s. you have no authority to dismiss anyone.

Jan. 15 2009 12:20 PM
abraham

Hey Bob and you other war crimes apologists, did the Palestinians make up this attack on the UN headquarters in Gaza?

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Official_U.N._Gaza_complex_hit_with_0115.html

Why does the IDF target civilian and humanitarian buildings in Gaza?

Seems the zionist learned well from the Nazis (their ideological cousins).

You FAIL.

Jan. 15 2009 11:31 AM
abraham

Uh, that particular meme (Arab lands were barren) has been debunked and dismissed (like Bob) numerous times. Anyone who still repeats it is a laughing stock to serious Middle East scholars. Norman Finkelstein took the lead in his dissection of Joan Peters' _From Time Immemorial_.

For details on the Peters hoax, see Norman G. Finkelstein, Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict, and Yehoshua Porath, "Mrs. Peters's Palestine," The New York Review of Books, 16 January 1986.

Soon after the first Zionist Congress in Basel (Switzerland) in 1897, a Zionist delegation was sent to Palestine for a fact finding mission, and to explore the viability of settling Palestine with persecuted European Jews. The delegation replied back from Palestine with a cable that stated:

"The bride is beautiful, but she is married to another man." (Iron Wall, p. 3)

To disprove this baseless myth, let's quote Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister) who stated as early as 1918 that "Palestine is not an empty country". According to Shabtai Teveth (one of Ben-Gurion's official biographers), Ben-Gurion stated in an article published in 1918 that:

"Palestine is not an empty country . . . on no account must we injure the rights of the inhabitants."

Ben-Gurion often returned to this point, emphasizing that Palestinian Arabs had "the full right" to an independent economic, cultural, and communal life, but not political. (Shabtai Teveth, p. 37-38)

Read more, unless you're afraid of the truth:

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story414.html

So once again, the truth is out there, if you seek it, and the same tired zionist lies are promulgated here by Bob and other cheap denizens of Brooklyn.

Bob, you are a coward and a lowly creature. Go find a quiet place to wait until you die. You are worthless.

Jan. 15 2009 11:11 AM
You, American from Brooklyn NY

I recognize that this historic recollection will gather little recognition among the anti-Zionist theoreticians. Nevertheless, before Zionists arrived in Palestine (Let's say 1882 and onward.), non-Jewish English writers remarked how barren and sparsely settled the Land was.

When Zionists arrived and re-developed the country, Arab population climbed alongside that of the Jews.

The Muslim Ottoman rulers of Palestine regulated its settlement by the Jews, as did the Christian British in their wake. Nevertheless, much of the land that was partitioned for Jews by the UN in '47 had been purchased by Jews from Muslim landholders earlier in the century.

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a noted anti-Semite (in the European sense), and Nazi-collaberator and trainee and a role model for his less religious nephew, the Egyptian Yasser Arafat, Palestinian leader, terrorist, and embezzler.

Jewish re-settlement of Palestine was not a political offense to the native population. It was an economic boon to them. However, to Islam it was a religiious offense. Islam believes that once land is conquered for Islam, it may never be relinquished or ceded.

Jan. 15 2009 09:57 AM
Bob Frost from Portsmouth NH

DisMISSLE, good one. You keep proving my point by doing what you accuse me and others in this thread of doing and spouting terrorist 'prophecies'. You haven't offered a lick of evidence for anything but your own rabid indoctrination in the politics of terror.

Keep it up. OTM is playing your song.

Buh bye.

Jan. 15 2009 02:17 AM
abraham

Your words are meaningless and trite, Bob. You can't argue the facts so you resort to ever more demeaning (to you) claptrap in a desperate attempt to convert a losing proposition into a winner, when everyone knows you can't polish a turd.

The moment the zionists set foot in Palestine with the intent to colonize it as a "Jewish state" is the moment that they declared war on the indigenous population. That war, though it doesn't currently look good for the protagonists, is far from over, and Israel will find itself stunned, destitute, and then gone by the year 2025. Of this you can be assured, Bob, and it will have come about because of the efforts of people of your demented persuasion who wanted it all for nothing but instead achieved nothing for all.

Again, you are dismissed. Good bye.

Jan. 15 2009 12:42 AM
Bob Frost from Portsmouth NH

Despite your passion, abraham, it's easy to see you're arguments are from ignorance. Your posts are drivel. Anyone that wants to can see video on the Internet of the precision of Israel's responses as well as Hamas’ war crimes even as they happen. If Israel wanted to obliterate Palestinians, it would have been done by now, as has been posted by others in this thread.

The plain truth of the matter, ignored by you and by OTM, is civilian casualties on both sides are ensured by Hamas by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians with rocket and mortar attacks, homicide bombers, and assassinations, and by deliberately firing from positions surrounded by civilians, like mosques, schools, hospitals. Or Hamas will bring the children where they can be used as shields, as seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J08GqXMr3YE

You can run on with words, abraham, but you can't hide the truth.

Jan. 14 2009 05:05 PM
anna from new york

Oh, what wouldn't people do for petrodollars or hate or dollars and hate?

Jan. 14 2009 03:34 PM
abraham

Tony Karon can always be relied upon to deliver insightful commentary:

The War Isn’t Over, But Israel Has Lost
http://tonykaron.com/2009/01/09/the-battle-isnt-over-but-israel-has-lost-the-war/

Jan. 14 2009 02:50 PM
abraham

For unbiased information on the Israeli genocide on Gaza, please read B'Tselem, a human rights organization in Israel.

http://www.btselem.org/

Jan. 14 2009 02:49 PM
abraham

Here is another link that shows Israelis smiling, laughing and joking as they observe the slaughter in Gaza from their safe perch in the hills above:

http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2009/01/picnic-over-our-flesh-and-blood.html

Never forgive, never forget.

Jan. 14 2009 02:46 PM
abraham

1013 Palestinian killed and 4650 injured

Of the victims, there are 322 Palestinian children and Palestinian women, according to Palestinian medical sources cited in Al-Jazeera (Arabic). I want to meet a Western liberal who will quibble with whatever methods Palestinians may resort to in the future in fighting Israel. The entire Western world, with its silence or complicity, has lost any right in lecturing or hectoring Palestinians about methods of resistance.

Source: http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2009/01/1013-palestinian-killed-and-4650.html

Jan. 14 2009 02:44 PM
abraham

What I would like is for OTM to do a story on why the news media in this country uncritically reports IDF propaganda even as Israel prevents journalists from reporting from Gaza, yet when it comes to the Palestinian side we hear from Martin Indyk, Dennis Ross, etc., i.e. zionists.

The fact is, NPR's coverage of this massacre has been beyond abysmal, and carries an undertone of blaming the victim, i.e. the occupied Palestinians (under occupation now for 60 years).

Palestine is occupied. Israel is the aggressor. zionism is the cause.

Jan. 14 2009 02:42 PM
abraham

"I am a historian (among a couple of other things) so don't push this arab propaganda, including historical myths."

Oh sure, and I'm a doctor, among a couple of other things.

"I would recommend reading something about dhimmies and the story of Maimonides to find out how fast Jews (and Christians) had occasionally flee from muslims."

Oh really? Did they kill 6 million Jews like a European Christian did?

Do you also dredge up ancient history when you argue with your boyfriend? Is stuff that antecedents of his 12 generations past come up for which you hold him responsible?

Why don't we focus on more recent history, such as the Irgun massacres at Deir Yassin, the bombing of the King David Hotel by Jewish terrorists, etc. These are more relevant issues to discuss.

As for the rest of your post, I am not reading it, because you're a shill.

Jan. 14 2009 02:35 PM
abraham

Fred vomitted:

"it is very simple, when hamas stops its actions attacking and preparing to attack and destroy israel and renounces its goal to destroy israel then israel has no reason to bomb them anymore. until then they are the rabid dog that bites at every chance and when struck back plays the victim."

When has Israel ever recognized the right of Palestine to exist?

As for the rest of your rotten cabbage, it's too smelly to approach.

Jan. 14 2009 02:28 PM
abraham

Fred brayed:

"the fact was that the grand mufti of jerusalem was in talks with hitler for his portion of the holocaust, and helped set up muslim SS brigades."

If we're going to be diverting the water under the bridge back into the fields, we may as well be thorough.

George Bush's grandfather supplied the Nazis during WWII (documented, use Google).

Why don't you bring that up? Notwithstanding the fact that there were no "muslim SS brigades". That's another zionist lie. Your demonization may work with other dimwitted people of your ilk, but not with me.

As for your accusations of Hamas using human shields, they fall as flat as Mr. Frost's pathetic attempts. Never mentioned in the news reports of rocket attacks against Sderot (I guess because of military censorship) is the fact that it contains a military base. Sderot is a legitimate military target. The civilian casualties are "collateral damage".

Come now, you can't have it both ways, even if you are a zionist.

Jan. 14 2009 02:25 PM
abraham

"NPR and OTM are complicit in perpetuating this hate to the degree they ignore Hamas' strategy to effect genocide on Israelis and Jews as well as to create massive numbers of 'martyrs' both willing and unwilling among the Palestinian people."

Blah blah blah blah what a bunch of mediocre and infantile blabber.

In actuality, NPR is guilty of carrying Israeli propaganda verbatim while entirely ignoring the Palestinian side of the story. NPR has made no effort to interview Hamas political leaders, while practically every Jewish Israeli citizen has been given airtime. And you are demanding more bias in your favor?

This is the type of crap that zionists complain about all the time. They organize their minions to flood news organizations with their screeching tirades against what they perceive as bias, when in fact zionist influence controls most major media organizations in America, as well as our Congress, Senate, Whitehouse, and even state and local politicians. What more do you want?

Finally, Mr. Frost ends his screed with a link to one of the most rabidly anti-Arab/Muslim blogs on the planet.

That speaks volumes in and of itself.

Bob Frost, you are a racist, a bigot, and a piss poor debater. You are dismissed.

Jan. 14 2009 02:19 PM
abraham

"Some Palestinians are Arabs but not all Arabs are Palestinians."

There you go again, trying to obfuscate the issue. All Arabs living in Palestine are Palestinians. And all Arabs are Semites. Your blabber here is a classic case of anti-Semitism. You, sir, are a virulent anti-Semite.

"Jews can claim Semitic derivation no less than others."

Even converts? Of course not. See how easily your theories are debunked, sir? Jews are not a race. They are a religion, just like Islam is a religion. Semites are a race, a race that originates in the Middle East, not Europe.

"If you think you have the right to inflict genocide on Jews, you are fundamentally wrong."

How did this enter the discussion? Seriously, please explain. Where did I indicate that I wished to inflict genocide on Jews?

This is typical of zionist debate tactics. That is, it's not debate, just a constant spewage of diarrhea.

Jan. 14 2009 02:18 PM
abraham

(cont)

"Deliberately using humans as shields is a war crime by established international standards."

That is true. However, apparently you only think they are war crimes when you accuse the Palestinians of doing it. When the IDF does it (as has been documented countless times, use Google?) it is apparently OK.

As for the Palestinians, they don't have the luxury of "precision" tanks, jets, gunboats, etc. Even the Israelis, who do have the luxury of these weapons (thanks to my tax dollars) can't seem to muster the type of precision out of those weapons that would prevent the countless civilian deaths that have occured. But when your land is under occupation, with all exits sealed, where do you expect Hamas to fight? In open fields?

Let's be frank and cut the bullcrap. Israel fires indiscriminately at ANY target with no particular discernment for civilian populations. Res ipsa loquitur. This is documented as well. Use Google. All we have heard from the IDF is that Hamas is using civilians as shields, but no evidence is ever provided. When it is, it turns out to be old, irrelevant footage, or footage of another building, or just plain dumb lies that are easily debunked. This is documented. Use google to learn about Qana I and II, the UN school bombing in Gaza, etc.

At this point, only an idiot would think that hiding themselves among civilians will be protection from Israeli fire. Only a bigger idiot would believe the propaganda pumped out by the IDF, which (it's documented, use google) uses Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them, AT GUNPOINT, to walk in front of them as they march through the streets of various Palestinian villages looking for wanted men. I guess the obfuscation here is to hide the fact that IDF soldiers are supreme cowards.

But back to your sorry accusation. Hamas is defending its homeland inside its homeland. It has no where else to fight. Perhaps Israel can kindly provide an alternate venue for their assault.

Jan. 14 2009 02:18 PM
abraham

Wow, Bob Frost is a real piece of work.

"Nor could any rational person take seriously your absurd question of eating Palestinian babies."

Of course not. So back to the question: when does it become OK to criticize Israel for its genocide against the Palestinians? The destruction of Jewish society in Germany didn't happen in one fell swoop. In happened in massacre after massacre over a period of years. The same is happening to the Palestinians.

At what point do we call it a genocide? When it's too late to do anything about it? But then, that is the plan, isn't it, Mr. Frost?

Jan. 14 2009 02:17 PM
anna from new york

"Antisemitism as it is referred to was practiced by christianity, (can I remind you that Jews fled from Catholics persecutions and found refuge in muslim countries?)

Muslims don't hate jews, they don't think jews killed Jesus Christ. Arabs, on the other hand, hate israelis because of the way the Israelis are massacring, imprisoning, demolishing those people! "
Not that fast, lama.

I am a historian (among a couple of other things) so don't push this arab propaganda, including historical myths.
I would recommend reading something about dhimmies and the story of Maimonides to find out how fast Jews (and Christians) had occasionally flee from muslims.
I am not reading the rest of your post. You're a shill.

Jan. 14 2009 10:31 AM
anna from new york

The second Anna isn't me.
Dr. anna

Jan. 14 2009 10:19 AM
anna from new york

Francisco,
I understand where you come from, but you are misguided.
When someone is guilty you say "He/she is guilty" All this so called "balanced dance" is unfair toward the innocent side. Yes, it takes effort and time to study history, to understand all the complexities, not to mention good will to figure out who is the offender, but it must be done. Otherwise one can slip easily into collaboration with evil.

Jan. 14 2009 10:16 AM
Bob Frost from Portsmouth NH

On The Media somehow missed how Hamas indoctrinates children to terrorism, here:

http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part3.html

and that stuff has been around for years.

In its haste to appear serious, reasonable, and authoritative, On The Media, perhaps deliberately, omits important stuff from the Palestinian point of view that doesn't quite fit with OTM’s apparent on-air sympathy toward Hamas, such as a young Palestinian girl who lost her family in Gaza and was herself injured who says:

“...In the other room were my mother, my father, my younger brother and another sister, who is 13 days old. I say, Hamas is the cause, in the first place, of all wars.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLIdxF-GHWw

Perfectly good American taxpayers’ money supports OTM and NPR. It doesn't appear to be spent in American Public interest, does it?

Jan. 14 2009 02:57 AM
fred from usa ca

nice of you to bring up Goebbels anna. the palestinians and their leaders actions over the last decades would make Goebbells proud indeed. brainwashing youth and seeding antisemitic hate through all forms of government religious/educational/media institutions. just take a good look at what runs through palestinian media. you don't get children collecting suicide bomber trading cards if you haven't warped your society with hate. http://www.pmw.org.il/
the constant biased reporting against israel
http://www.camera.org/
hamas admitting its use of human shields
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y
and of course the famous pallywood news manufacturing machine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys

as for the media story on al jazerras biased coverage being fair, well imagine how such a news channel would have worked in world war 2. these people would have planted themselves in german towns reporting on german suffering, but never saying why. sometimes what is not said is what makes it propaganda.

Jan. 14 2009 02:42 AM
You, American from Brooklyn NY

Now there is Anna juxtaposed to anna!

Does Cap A Anna have her own construction devoid of "lies" to explain the situation?

Are the "Israeli thugs" simply incompetent at their role assigned by Anna to carry out criminal attacks? How does Anna explain their desisting from responding to attacks from Gaza for so long? What would Anna have her Israeli thugs do, instead of their ineffectual attempts at mass civilian killings?

Anna, Israel and the world await your stage direction!

* * * *

Lets hear it for the brave Hamas freedom fighters who were forced by the foul weather or unrushing prayer times to aim for civilian centers 8000 times in the last few years.

It is certainly unsporting of the Israeli thugs to respond
so late to these hastily-executed attacks. Anna and her ilk should write a better scenario for the Israeli thugs.

Jan. 14 2009 02:00 AM
Anna from U.S.

I am wondering if IDF has come up with special brainwashing pills for the supporters of Israeli thugs. All I hear from those who support Israeli attacks in Gaza is a bunch of lies and war propaganda, the kind with which Gobbels propaganda pales in comparisn. But Gobbels had no qualms spewing his racist bile openly.

Jan. 14 2009 01:16 AM
fred from usa ca

"Bob, your pathetic gasps didn't answer the question I posed: at what point is it OK to condemn Israel for the brutality it is unleashing on the people of Gaza? Do we wait until they start carpet bombing? Do we wait until the death toll is 5,000? 10,000? At what point does it become OK to criticize Israel for war crimes?"

it is very simple, when hamas stops its actions attacking and preparing to attack and destroy israel and renounces its goal to destroy israel then israel has no reason to bomb them anymore. until then they are the rabid dog that bites at every chance and when struck back plays the victim.

until then, israel is under no obligation to let hamas attack its civilians without response. so called palestinian defenders who are nothing more than apologists for terrorist tactics do nothing for their cause but keep their cause extreme and nonviable as a peace partner.

if you look back at western and middle eastern wars most parties have had far less concern for civilian life than israel has. just look at the us for one, how many american civilians did the japanese kill. turks have killed 32,000 kurdish civilians in the last decade. the war in jordan killed tens of thousands. it is by looking at history that we can see the double standards applied only to israel. by recklessly throwing around terms like genocide...it leaves no terms outrageous enough to describe your own peoples actions by the standards you are pushing on israel. and this is the problem with much of reporting on this conflict, it is reported through a lens of double standards and hypocrisy that is unacknowledged.

Jan. 13 2009 06:41 PM
fred from usa ca

"oh anna! The antisemitic defense? Couldn't you do better? "

the term means what it was coined to mean, don't try to muddy the waters. it tends to be a game thats played by people who know the label applies very well to themselves and so want to deconstruct the term as a diversionary tactic. it works the same way when a homophobe claims he cannot be a such because he is not "afraid of man" as the term could mean.

the fact was that the grand mufti of jerusalem was in talks with hitler for his portion of the holocaust, and helped set up muslim SS brigades.

that is the history of antisemitism for you.

and its the only way you can get hysterical cries of genocide to describe targeted strikes with frankly minimal civilian deaths considering the fact that hamas uses them as human shields. if israel had hamas mind set they'd simply kill as many people as possible, and in a tightly packed area they are spoiled for targets, a few bombs and perhaps incendiaries against some residential areas and you'd have thousands dead in a snap, but israel isn't like hamas which is why the numbers are so low. there is a fundamental unfairness, unreason when people stretch the truth so far that can only be explained through antisemitism.

and if you need to bring up genocide to describe anything, well by that standard the intentions of hamas are truly genocidal even if ineffective. their antisemitic statements and their very actions define their moral code. attacking civilians with all available force with no concern for their welfare is their primary tactic. and they were freely elected by the palestinian population. that is what israel is dealing with. israel is under no obligation to let them do what they please considering their stated intent.

Jan. 13 2009 06:22 PM
Phil from California

I won't wade into the tit for tat arguments here, but given the content of the original piece, I think that media outlets should mention in their reporting the Israeli policy limiting media access to Gaza. At least this would help the audience understand that they are operating off of limited information.

Jan. 13 2009 03:56 PM
Bob Frost from Portsmouth NH

Abraham, you are confused. I made no claims of antisemitism. Nor could any rational person take seriously your absurd question of eating Palestinian babies.

Deliberately using humans as shields is a war crime by established international standards. Hamas has made over 8000 rocket and mortar attacks since 2001. Start there.

Some Palestinians are Arabs but not all Arabs are Palestinians. Jews can claim Semitic derivation no less than others. If you think you have the right to inflict genocide on Jews, you are fundamentally wrong.

Rational people can see by your post what hate filled ‘TRUE’ Semites are capable of supporting in spite of massive moral evidence to contrary.

NPR and OTM are complicit in perpetuating this hate to the degree they ignore Hamas' strategy to effect genocide on Israelis and Jews as well as to create massive numbers of 'martyrs' both willing and unwilling among the Palestinian people.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/32333_Report_on_Palestinian_Rocket_and_Mortar_Attacks

Jan. 13 2009 03:21 PM
You, American from Brooklyn NY

To all the "massacre" promoters: Do you seriously think that the Israeli's are engaged in a genocidal attack?

If so, why do they 'phone up residents to warn them of impending raids? Why don't they just go in and bomb or shoot them properly, according to your lights?

Can Julia cite the historical native rulers and laws of the vaunted "eternal" Palestinian nation? Late Israeli PM Menachem Begin said that he was a Palestinan before the partitian of Palestine into Israel and Jordan. Since then, Palestine only refers to Israel and the areas it rules or ruled. Arafat never had any beef with Jordan's rule over its west bank before '67.

Jordan had the right idea, turning its back on its claim to the west bank to satisfy the Arab League. Let it be Israel's problem, the thinking goes.

So, again, why did the first 1000 Israeli air sorties into Gaza result in only 500 Gazan deaths? Not very efficient genocide, methinks. Are the Hamas fighters the ones who are being killed by accident because they're standing too close to civilians, or is it the other way around?

Jan. 13 2009 01:36 PM
Francisco from NYC

Dear Anna: I always, fiercely condemm thuggish, muderous terrorist and condem emphatically loss of innocent lives. After all I am a physician and if you must know an avid fan and supporter of Israel (my mother was head of the Dominico-Israeli cultural center for many years). Again it is my most sincere wish that there is no more fighting. I am not singling out any one side. And I will repeat again what you consider BS "Transparency and empathy will always bring out better results than secrecy and enmity." I hope this answers your question.

Jan. 13 2009 01:07 PM
abraham

Bob, your pathetic gasps didn't answer the question I posed: at what point is it OK to condemn Israel for the brutality it is unleashing on the people of Gaza? Do we wait until they start carpet bombing? Do we wait until the death toll is 5,000? 10,000? At what point does it become OK to criticize Israel for war crimes?

As for bringing "disgrace to public debate", it is those that spew viscious propaganda about a noble people that for 60 years has persevered under the most extreme brutality in modern times. You bring shame to your mother with such talk as you make. Fie.

As for your sorry accusations of "anti-semitism", know that that word has been abused for too long by zionists, and we, we the TRUE Semites of Arab descent, are re-claiming it. Every pro-Israel comment in this thread has been anti-Semitic, because they slander the Arabs who are defending their homeland against a cancer that has rooted itself in historic Palestine.

We will ultimately be vindicated, and with that vindication will come the end of Israel. All you can do is watch in horror. A horror, I might add, of your own making.

Jan. 13 2009 12:01 PM
lama from virginia, usa

Antisemitism as it is commonly referred to means discrimination against Jews, right? It is a very very potent word because it was directly responsible for the jewish holocaust and the abomination that were the concentration camps. Antisemitism as it is referred to was practiced by christianity, (can I remind you that Jews fled from Catholics persecutions and found refuge in muslim countries?)
Muslims don't hate jews, they don't think jews killed Jesus Christ. Arabs, on the other hand, hate israelis because of the way the Israelis are massacring, imprisoning, demolishing those people!
Double standards?? Did you say double standards? Which country is the only country in the world who can continously and with total impunity ignore EVERY rule, condemnation or UN resolution? Imagine if Iran or Syria were doing what Israel is doing now!! Yes, double standards indeed!
I have two kids and I cry for EVERY child who suffers or is killed by the war, I don't care who he is, children SHOULDN"T die in any conflict. I wish the IDF thought that way too though..Do you know how many children have died in these last 2 weeks? Do YOU care about them?
Hamas and every other extremist group make me sick! But what other choice do you leave them with?the Palestinians, who are being imprisoned in Gaza with no way out, no future, no dignity left, who witnessed this latest carnage, are going to be more pro Hamas than ever, way to go Israel, for your clever "self defense" strategy..Such a success, just like the one they did in Lebanon.
I can't blame them indeed. I blame you though, the educated, well fed , rich masses who cheer and applaud the death of women and children.

Jan. 13 2009 10:32 AM
anna from new york

Correction (29)
I meant of course
The WORD antisemitism has its own history and usage

Jan. 13 2009 09:20 AM
anna from new york

Francisco Gonzalez-Franco January 13, #28
Francisco, I have a question:
Any reason you weren't vocal when the rockets were falling on kindergarden in South Israel? For a number of years.
Any reason you weren't vocal when innocent civilians were blown up by terrorists? You had the facts, they were very loud. Why you didn't hear them?
"Transparency and empathy will always bring out better results than secrecy and enmity." This is dogma, or, frankly, BS.

Jan. 13 2009 08:58 AM
anna from new york

"oh anna! The antisemitic defense? Couldn't you do better?"
Yes, lama, I can do better - actually I can it perfectly - antisemitism is one of areas of my expertise.
"Palestinians ARE semitic people! And we don't have this perpetual guilt over what Hitler did to you , because we had nothing to do with it!"

Yes, your statement is ignorant (very much so) and antisemitic. Whether Palestinians are semitic or not doesn't matter. The world antisemitism has its own history and usage, and whether you like it not really, really, really doesn't matter. Trust me I know something about languages.
Let me introduce you to a concept "double standards." I alluded to it earlier, but you didn't understand. When we live in the world of slavery and rape and focus is on Israel, well it's "double standards," it's prejudice, and specifically it's antisemitism.
Where were you when Israeli children were blown up and bombarded? You didn't see it, blinded by prejudices?
Dr anna

Jan. 13 2009 08:49 AM
Francisco Gonzalez-Franco from New York

This is parallel talk. Two sides believe what they believe and it's impossible to bring facts to the table because everybody has their own set of facts to prove or disprove this or that. Transparency and empathy will always bring out better results than secrecy and enmity. Who is more terrorized? Silly silly question to which we should answer. Let's stop terrorist (on both sides).

Jan. 13 2009 07:59 AM
Bob Frost from Portsmouth NH

Pretty lame, lama. The Israelis are firing back at those tat fire at them, Hamas. Hamas makes sure civilian get in the line of fire. Anna used a term that most people in the U.S. take to mean 'anti Jewish'. You correctly point out a broader definition of Semitic.

In doing so, you refine our focus on the fact that Hamas and the Palestinians who support them have sworn to create a Holocaust of their own for Israel and Jews in general.

Like this On The Media segment, you overlook the murderous cynical strategy where Hamas deliberately ensures violence is brought to make martyrs of its own people in an attempt to sway public opinion. That's monstrosity.

Both you and OTM bring disgrace to public debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLbZyWZI3hU

Jan. 13 2009 05:43 AM
lama from virginia, usa

oh anna! The antisemitic defense? Couldn't you do better?
Leave it to the Europeans and the West, who shut up as soon as you pronounce that word, because THEY were the ones who caused the jewish holocaust. Palestinians ARE semitic people! And we don't have this perpetual guilt over what Hitler did to you , because we had nothing to do with it!
Israelis are doing a massacre right now, and no amount of "antisemitic propanganda" can cover their monstrosity!

Jan. 13 2009 03:14 AM
anna from new york

#24
Well, antisemitic propaganda is antisemitic propaganda
and clearly this is food for some.

Jan. 12 2009 05:12 PM
abraham

So, Bob, when do we start condemning Israel? When they start actually eating Palestinian babies? Will that be too far?

Jan. 12 2009 11:26 AM
Evan from Santa Monica, CA

Back to the interview, I was disturbed that Ethan Bronner could so easily remove himself from his job and speculate on why Israel is refusing to allow journalists to cover the situation inside Gaza and casually handicap what this accomplishes for Israel. Where is his anger and frustration at a government that is preventing New York Times reporters from offering a full picture of what is happening?

Jan. 12 2009 11:04 AM
anna from new york

"The concern over civilians seems to be a dubious reason for the endless spotlight on this tiny area in this context."
Fred, there is nothing dubious here - just clear prejudices and opportunism (sometimes paid).

Jan. 12 2009 04:42 AM
anna from new york

"PALESTINE WAS ALWAYS A NATION AND WILL BE ALWAYS A NATION"
A dogma, Julia, is a dogma is a dogma.
An antisemite, Julia, is an antisemite is an antisemite.

Jan. 12 2009 04:39 AM
Julia

PALESTINE WAS ALWAYS A NATION AND WILL BE ALWAYS A NATION .. Killing palestinian/destroying their houses will not let them forget that tehir land was stolen .. and their houses were destoryed and their families were murdered by ISRAELIS.
The Palestinian people were being DISPOSSESSED and ETHNICALLY CLEANSED out of their homes and farms in 1948.

They cannot avoid CIVILIANS!!!!... actually all what israelis do is targetting civilians ... just to punish palestinians for voting.
SO WHY they killing journalists and they do not allow them to cover what is going on in GAZA?? what they are hiding? scared of what?

Jan. 11 2009 11:27 PM
Bob Frost from Portsmouth NH

The Chosen Victim, what a conspiracy theory! But I understand how you can spout mindless propaganda. Shame on the Israelis for not letting homicide bombers pass freely into Israel and for blowing up tunnels used for the same purpose after the poor Hamas victims worked so hard.

Israel's nationally decided and implemented 2005 "Disengagement Plan" forcibly removing Israelis from Gaza was clearly such a 'Zionist' scam that Hamas saw right through it and attacked the retreating civilians with rockets while they were leaving. Civilians, of course, pose the greatest danger to the heavily armed, genocidal thugs of Hamas.

Chosen Victim, no sensible person is going to give you any credibility. On the other hand, there is On The Media, they're almost there.

Jan. 11 2009 10:29 PM
The Chosen Victim from New Jersey

Zionist wants the world to believe that Israelis left Gaza! sure, only to turn it into world's largest prison; they continued with blockade, assissinations, confiscation of land, and their apartheid.

they created HAMAS and nourished it!

Jan. 11 2009 10:00 PM
fred from usa ca

there is no context in the media. Turkey has occupied kurdish land and has killed 32,000 civilians in its battle with separatists over the last decade. 5 million dead in the congo, rape on an epic scale, 45,000 dead a month just recently, what it is now who knows. A million starved to death in north korea. Hundreds of thousands in Sudan etc...yet the reporting and bile spewed on israel makes it seem like those other things do not exist at all. The concern over civilians seems to be a dubious reason for the endless spotlight on this tiny area in this context.

Jan. 11 2009 09:34 PM
fred from usa ca

i'm not sure what benefit israel gets from giving free reign to journalists in war zones. The past pattern of reporting has been rather biased against israel. A pattern of exaggerated figures for dead palestinians who are claimed to be civilians, then outrageous headlines, then when it turns out there were terrorist activities in that building and the body count is much lower, pretty much silence.

as for so called disproportionate response, the reporting on that issue is rather distorted as well. by the moral calculus of death count nazi germany had the high moral ground compared to the british who suffered rather fewer civilian deaths. But did the fact that londoners hid from bombs and rockets in the underground and that emergency services were highly coordinated and thus kept the fatality rate down mean the uk had no right to respond? no one would make that case. but oddly in the case of israel they are just expected to take endless rocket attacks.

and this is the other hypocrisy. the media does not bias for israel, it biases towards the palestinians for the simple fact that it never acknowledges the hypocrisy of the palestinian position. By their very actions and stated intent hamas does not at all value civilian life, in fact they consider them legitimate targets as made clear by their actions. They have no right to complain about civilian death when they have made it clear that it is within their bounds of moral conduct. The palestinians through elections of hamas can be said to have the same position. So the constant painting them as helpless victims with no hand in their own suffering is disingenuous.

In fact there is media manipulation by the palestinians. Google/youtube pallywood and you will see. It is a corrupt relationship with some of the media, give the media a convenient story that fits their biases and it will run.

Jan. 11 2009 09:34 PM
Bob Frost from Portsmouth NH

So, by extension, Hamas should also be terrorizing parts of Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria.

Which of these historical regime areas is correct?
Egyptian rule
Ottoman rule
British Mandate
UN partition
1949 Armistice Agreements

or further back:

"O my people! Enter the holy land which Allah hath assigned unto you (Israel which included the area now discussed), and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin." (Moses to the ‘Children of Israel’, Qu'ran, Surah 5:21)

Israelis it would seem, are native to the area, as well but as a nation.

However you choose, Hamas are murderous thugs who are responsible for whatever deaths on either side result from the current conflict. Israel isn't seeking to bring democracy and self determination to the area. They want the rocket attacks, mortar attacks, homicide bombings, and assassinations to stop. Simple enough.

Jan. 11 2009 05:56 PM
anna from new york

I apologize for duplication (to a degree)

Jan. 11 2009 03:48 PM
anna from new york


Well,
People are boiled, cooked, fried, sold into slavery, brothels, etc. around the world, but American "liberals" and the like gather here, after spending their working days torturing their underlings and throwing them into mean streets without any protection, ... care about the Palestinians. Sure, antisemitic hypocrites.

Jan. 11 2009 03:41 PM
salvatore principato from new york city

thank goodness finally some objectivity!
O.T.M.'s analysis of the conflict in Gaza through the lens of the media reporting was the most sober, intelligent view i've heard from any American news program. Your interview with with the producer from Al Jazeera English was refreshing.

ps. to think that the state of Israel might not be the best idea as far as bringing democracy & self-determination to the region
does not necessarily mean any harm to the Jewish people anymore than to thinking that the Soviet Union was an illegitimate entity didn't meant any harm to the Russian people

peace now!

Jan. 11 2009 03:35 PM
anna from new york

Well, what to expect from the media, if the media are illiterate. I've just heard "On the Media" that Israel was imposed on NATIVE Palestinians by Western powers.
Sorry to inform you but the Palestinians are as native to the area, as Americans are native in this land.
Why don't you study history (not that scary), including the name Palestine?

Jan. 11 2009 03:22 PM
Bob Frost from Portsmouth NH

So, Julia, it's OK to target and kill Israeli civilians as long as long as Hamas doesn't get what it wants. What houses and fields are you talking about?

Your statement about Palestinians 'resisting' is totally bogus, Hamas is the group 'resisting' and are sworn to completely eradicate Israel and deliberately uses Palestinians (who continue to tolerate and support Hamas) as human shield cannon fodder to sway opinions such as yours.

Israel voluntarily left Gaza. They don't want it. When Hamas stops shooting rockets at Israel the area will have a much better chance at peace.

Lastly, what does Palestinian mean? It has never been a nation.

Jan. 11 2009 01:38 PM
Julia

Well the main reason for the rockets is the OCCUPATION .. ISRAEL occupies palestinian lands so palestinians has the RIGHT to resist ...

Also, Israel broke the truce on November 4 by assassinating 6 HAMAS memebers.

BOB,
IF israel give the houses back to their owners, the fields back to their landlords, and the homes back to their people, Release the prisoners, and let them live in security, and peace ... palestinians will stop resisting.

Jan. 11 2009 12:31 PM
Julia

Well the main reason for the rockets is the OCCUPATION .. ISRAEL occupies palestinian lands so palestinians has the RIGHT to resist ...

Also, Israel broke the truce on November 4 by assassinating 6 HAMAS memebers.

BOB,
IF israel give the houses back to their owners, the fields back to their landlords, and the homes back to their people, Release the people and let them live in security, and peace ... palestinians will stop resisting.

Jan. 11 2009 12:29 PM
Bob Frost from Portsmouth NH

Well, I'm glad you're not protecting my neighborhood.

How would you stop the attacks on Israel, Robert?

Jan. 11 2009 12:05 PM
Robert from NYC

And you, Bob, bought the argument Israel wants. And I don't support the missiles into Israel but I think the volume speaks the truth and in truth it seems that Israel hasn't done enough to get the innocent protected and it has been reported on all the media but it just doesn't pan out that the missiles into Israel are causing as much carnage as the bombing of Gaza is and that's because they aren't as horrid as they are and as horrible it is that the handful of Israelis got killed by them. It's all horrible.

Jan. 11 2009 10:59 AM
Bob Frost from Portsmouth NH

By the way, Robert, Israel has gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties. Did you notice any NPR coverage of that? I didn't think so.

Jan. 11 2009 10:51 AM
Bob Frost from Portsmouth NH

I think you've bought the argument Hamas wants bought, Robert. Your option is what, it's OK for Hamas to send thousands of rockets toward Israel? So what if a few Israelis are killed, any self defense response is 'disproportionate'.

Hamas deliberately targets civilians not only in Israel but in Gaza by firing from and hiding war materiel in or near places considered 'out of bounds' and makes sure there will be civilian casualties.

Nazis did a similar thing in WW2 by putting Dutch children on ammunition trains. Let the ammo go or stop the trains? The trains were stopped.

Here are links to some of the kids Hamas:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_fuijl2LcDMY/SWRkoH8F2mI/AAAAAAAAARk/I9aefgaPkq8/s400/blog26.gif
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_fuijl2LcDMY/SWRlUFLhSWI/AAAAAAAAARs/dWuTGbP2K4A/s1600-h/blog25.gif
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_fuijl2LcDMY/SWRknlBwx5I/AAAAAAAAARE/OFbbUF7-hWU/s1600-h/blog30.gif

Jan. 11 2009 10:49 AM
Robert from NYC

And so Bob that gives the OK to kill the innocent? Don't forget they're locked in that place, get very little if any supplies or treatment and are just targets. No one or very few agree with the HAMAS methods here but there has to be attempts to remove the innocent from the war zone before it becomes a war zone otherwise you have carnage and you HAVE now carnage. I call it Camp Gaza.

Jan. 11 2009 09:59 AM
Bob Frost from Portsmouth NH

I don't understand how you could consider the coverage honest, Mark, anymore than why PBS fails to recognize the felony murder doctrine in the situation, “…a rule of criminal statutes that any death which occurs during the commission of a felony is first degree murder, and all participants in that felony or attempted felony can be charged with and found guilty of murder.” Where was PBS when Hamas was rocketing Israelis as they were voluntarily leaving Gaza in 2206, never mind the thousands of rocket attacks deliberately targeting Israeli civilians since.

The children and other civilians being killed have been deliberately put in harm’s way by Hamas. It continues to be a successful strategy, especially it seems, with PBS and other media. Those that have survived are taught to seek martyrdom and death to all Israelis. Hamas bears responsibility for all the deaths.

Jan. 10 2009 04:14 PM
Mark Sullivan from Rochester MI

For six decades Americans have received coverage of the Israel-Palestine conflict that was so slanted that the American media establishment bordered on being a proxy for the Israeli State. It is ironic that the IDF’s current effort to restrict coverage of its activities in Gaza has resulted in some of the most honest coverage on the Israel-Palestine conflict that Americans have ever heard.

Jan. 10 2009 01:12 PM

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